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DVLA decision on classic cars? |
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GlobalTraveller
Club Member Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Location: Clevedon Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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Posted: 06 Aug 2015 at 4:28pm |
I just posted this in the E30 section but thought it relevant to this group more so.
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1988 E30 316 4 door. Sold for record amount
1990 E30 318is 2 door. New Project 1973 Jensen Interceptor S III 1973 Jensen Healey 2007 Transporter Sportline... |
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Mike Fishwick
Forum Member Joined: 04 Aug 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 2742 |
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I wonder why an original steering rack gains 2 points, but an original engine only 1 point?
I would suspect that the object of this policy is to allow DVLA to get hold of lots of old-style registration numbers, for re-sale as 'Cherished numbers.' I could understand a tightening of rules with regard to immunity from VED, but to steal the identity of a vehicle is nothing more than robbery. DVLA seem able to change laws, or invent new ones without reference to parliamentary debate and process, in order to make money and justify their upper echelon's performance-related bonuses. |
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GlobalTraveller
Club Member Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Location: Clevedon Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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There was something coming over from EU government about this as some of the classic car owners in The Netherlands hit off about it earlier this year for a similar reason....no modifications to even make the car safer - uprated brakes or tyres etc.
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1988 E30 316 4 door. Sold for record amount
1990 E30 318is 2 door. New Project 1973 Jensen Interceptor S III 1973 Jensen Healey 2007 Transporter Sportline... |
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Mike Fishwick
Forum Member Joined: 04 Aug 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 2742 |
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It's only a matter of time before the UK government (who are in a corner regardingtheir failure to improve air quality) forbid the use of any vehicle which does not need VED. Never trust a politician - or DVLA - bearing gifts . . .
The legislation is already there, just waiting to be used, in most EU states. The fact is that the major producers of particulate matter and nitrogen oxides - heating, railways, and industry - are more diffcult to touch then the motorist, and doing so will give the appearance that the governent is doing something. |
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Norrie
Club Member Joined: 15 Jul 2012 Status: Offline Points: 4047 |
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When someone has the definitive ruling of what is or is not deemed to be a classic car then this might have some significance? Oxford concise - Classic 'Judged over a period of time to be of highest quality'. Therefore any judgement based purely on age surely cannot be a classic? I have a 1999 523i, in poor condition, so in 10 years time will it be a classic or a banger?
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richardbaxter
Club Member Club Chairman Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Status: Offline Points: 708 |
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I happened to be reading about this last evening but not in depth, the example discussed referred to a model called 'Dutton' (a remanufactured/facsimilie 1930's style Bugatti) and I can see the logic behind it.
As a business model for example where an exact copy can now be reproduced (and perhaps have a few original components fitted), by fitting a registration plate from say 1930 - the car can assume in all but the truth, a tens of thousand £ car and not the actual cost of a repro - a minuscule amount by comparison to an original. The DVLA apply a Q plate to a kit car and of course this reduces the street cred of a Dutton facsimile Bugatti and so much so that Dutton sales have gone thro the floor as a result. With 3 d printing (in its infancy for car remanufacture) making it possible to reproduce anything to exact originality I guess this is the tip of the ice berg. To fit an old plate to a repro is to disguise the truth and and the DVLA wish to remove the mask, the DVLA are in effect safe guarding the system and closing the loop holes on which profitable business is being conducted by putting the owness on proving the legitimacy of a given vehicle. I don't believe for one moment that Dutton are being unscrupulous because they are not saying their repros are originals…but one can see how the street cred some crave on a small budget will be exposed.
Edited by richardbaxter - 07 Aug 2015 at 1:24pm |
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Norrie
Club Member Joined: 15 Jul 2012 Status: Offline Points: 4047 |
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Well interesting, I have been a strong opponent to those who try to pass cars off as genuine when indeed they are replicas. I have no problem with replica or styling as long as it is transparent. I did raise this issue with the club previously and was told that there was "nothing that can be done about members cars". I disagree and feel that the club should say to members if you have a replica or a car in certain styling then tell the truth. I also do not like incorrect badges put on cars and recall a picture in the club mag of a car with an M7 badge? I am not implying that specific car was pro porting to be an M7, but when people see pics in the club mag and it is the official club, they may be confused?
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Mike Fishwick
Forum Member Joined: 04 Aug 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 2742 |
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The problem is that in the case of an old car ('Classic' is such an over-used term) which has had a few sensible modifications made DVLA will try to remove the original registration number, and replace it with 'Q' plate.
For example, a friend has a really beautiful Mk.1 Sprite, immaculate from top to bottom, but it has an Alexander cross-flow head, larger SU carburettors, Donald Healey wire wheel and disc brake conversion, and lots of other sensible improvements. He may have a problem in maintaining its claim to the original registration (RAF 7) which he almost lost some years ago when they last tried this stunt with cars which had not been on the road for a while. He rebuilt it with anew BMC shell in about 1961, but at least in those days the chassis number was not stamped inotthe bodyshell, otherwise it would inevitably be judeged as unoriginal. |
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rpennington
Club Member Joined: 22 Apr 2013 Location: Leic Status: Offline Points: 978 |
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A few years ago,one of my brothers decided to build a 1930's I think it was style 2 seater open top mg type car. This was built on the chassis,suspension,engine & gearbox,steering from a triumph Herald, basically throwing away the body & interior along with a few other parts that weren't required during the build. The body was then replaced made out of plywood sheets & then covered with aluminium sheet.
This was registered by DVLA under the original registration that it was on as a Triumph Herald. Regards Rich |
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1999 E46 323i se Saloon - sold
2011 E90 325d msport - sold 2014 F30 335d xdrive msport plus pack |
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Mike Fishwick
Forum Member Joined: 04 Aug 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 2742 |
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Assuming that the real purpose behind this registration number grab is for
DVLA to be able to sell them as ‘Cherished’ numbers, I imagine that they will
claim the purpose to be that of making sure that a ‘Classic’ number plate
signifies a genuinely classic vehicle, which in the eyes of too many old vehicle
enthusiasts means a slavish replica of a new condition – complete with all the
cost-cutting and uselessly traditional features which that entails.
On old British motorcycles cadmium-plated fasteners with British Standard Cycle threads come to mind, along
with worn-out slide carburettors and useless brakes.
If this were so, it is the result of those enthusiasts who have tended to
look down their noses at sensible modifications, such as rack and pinion
steering gear in place of worn-out cam and peg steering boxes, modern gearboxes,
disc brakes, and Bosch alternators in place of Joseph Lucas 'Prince of Darkness' dynamos. Of course, many of these 'enthusiasts' do not use their vehicles, and are basically collectors who are more interested in owning an appreciating asset rather than a vehicle.
DVLA will no doubt claim that they are helping to preserve a core of
original and easily-identifiable classic vehicles. Of course, they will then
plan to sell registration numbers from modified vehicles to rich people who own
modern cars! I presume that they will wait for maybe ten years before doing so
in the hope that many people will die, the memories of others will be short enough, and official inertia
slow enough to prevent much protest. In another ten years such old registration
numbers will command even crazier prices that they now do.
In a world where so many modern cars drive around sporting old registration
numbers I really cannot imagine any justification for this policy, but perhaps a
sufficiently high level of protest may help to change their minds.
Edited by Mike Fishwick - 11 Aug 2015 at 4:26pm |
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richardbaxter
Club Member Club Chairman Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Status: Offline Points: 708 |
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The way I read this Mike I don't believe this to be a raid on old plates.
Certainly suprises me just how pricey these plates have become, whether they fetch the money is not known. Trouble is they are always unique to the purchasers whim and it must be almost impossible to sell them on... |
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NickDE
Region Chair North East Chairman Joined: 14 Mar 2015 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 1124 |
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I remember that once a number has been issued once, it can never be issued again. It either dies when a car is scrapped, or is transferred to another car by the current owner.
DVLA just gave me back my original plate for my car. I see no plate grabbing |
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Cabrio
Register Chair E30 Register & Competition Secretary Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 6625 |
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Nick - once they are scrapped they go back to the DVLA as they are not property they belong to the car for registration purposes...but the Secretary of State has the right to sell or reuse...this has been going on for many years its not a new thing....I am guessing this is more for cars that dont exist any longer and not registered to a real keeper or on sorn etc
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E30 Register joint coordinator - Competition Secretary - Contact name Neil for PM and Email - cabrio_e30@yahoo.co.uk - be aware addicted to E numbers
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Ian Arthur
Club Member Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Status: Offline Points: 313 |
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Excellent article by Heritage, has been shared thousands of
time and has provided a bit of advertising for them – shame the article hasn’t been
written by someone with an understanding of what’s going on.
Richard is absolutely right in what he says, if you have
fitted a 4.4 V8 to your E30 then the DVLA won’t be concerned as long as you notify
them of the change( the points system does not apply to a mass produced vehicle
which hasn’t had the shell altered) What they are going after is the vast
number of pre-war type vehicles that have just magically appeared out of nowhere. The main aim is to target the Pur Sang type recreations (read here before commenting http://www.carbuildindex.com/21748/pur-sang-bugatti-type-35-replica/
). These recreations are stunning and you really have to know your stuff to
tell the difference. When these cars were registered here in the UK a number of
car club recognised them as true 1930’s Bugatti’s and a log book was issued as
such. The cars are truly beautiful but these cars are not a 1930’s
Bugatti, they are late 2000 vehicles – end of. The car’s won’t get crush, they won’t get destroyed they
will simply be re-registered correctly. Personally if I had a Pur Sang I wouldn’t be too worried
over the registration number |
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