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Concours Mileage Points |
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gerald 
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 505 |
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 Topic: Concours Mileage PointsPosted: 24 Feb 2009 at 9:59pm |
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Hi all,
i no this is a sore subject but am i right believing that the mileage points have been changed from 1 point for every 10,000 to 1 point for every 20,000 if so why has this been changed can anyone explain?  |
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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gerald
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 505 |
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Posted: 26 Feb 2009 at 5:39pm |
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there must be someone that knows something?
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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steveH
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Concours Chairman Joined: 16 Aug 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1065 |
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Posted: 28 Feb 2009 at 2:08pm |
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It was decided that with many cars now having high miles and often fully restored that the one point per 10k miles was giving an 'advantage' against lower milers and would redress the balance.
Originality still causes the most divide of members / competitors and whilst the committee endevour to try to keep guidelines/ rules simple and workable the changes to omit originality from open class does raise concerns to some and will no doubt need further consideration.
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Tell it how it is the Northern way.
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gerald
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Posted: 28 Feb 2009 at 4:32pm |
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i dnt find the mileage points very fair i have to use my car every day so now my 93,000 miles which would of been 9 points will now be 4 points thats a lose of 5 points now i havent been doin concourse that long but i certainly no 5 points is a hell of alot points just to loose before i have even started it gives the low mileage cars a better advantage of winning personally i think this should be rethought,
thanks for the info tho |
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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Mike Fishwick
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Joined: 04 Aug 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Posted: 06 Mar 2009 at 1:30pm |
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Agreed - this change appears to favour those cars which are concours-only toys which see little real use.
I appreciate the point about cars which have been restored after a high mileage, but when one considers the likely numbers of such restored cars against those which are kept in good condition and used regularly, it seems that 'real' cars are being purposely disadvantaged - as if their owners didn't have enough to contend with.
Would it have been too difficult to introduce a compensatory factor for restored cars?
I always thought that the idea of a concours d'elegance was to find the cars which had been best looked after, relative to age and mileage, but our club obviously thinks otherwise.
The disturbing thing about concours rule changes is that they always seem to happen without being clearly publicised, and reasons given in the Magazine - why? Edited by Mike Fishwick - 06 Mar 2009 at 1:32pm |
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hennabm
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Posted: 06 Mar 2009 at 4:53pm |
How can it benefit cars that don't do much mileage when the points have been halved for the mileage and therefore those that do less miles will get less points
 It was 1pt per 10k now it is 1pt per 20k so the car that does mileage will get more points. Please correct if I'm seeing it wrong though???
I think the problem is here that unlike in the past when very few older models survived and were treated with kid gloves, there are far more now and more usable. This then presents a problem as some will have to work for a living and others will be treated a little more carefully. Naturally the used ones will gain damage from use unless wrapped in a plastic bubble as it is driven on the roads. Therefore the mileage allowance is there to compensate for it and I agree it should be there for that purpose.
The "real" cars are always going to have that problem when sat against show cars, whatever age and whatever make. I wonder if there is as much bleating about this from Morris Minor owners or MGs etc or whether it is a purely BMW club issue?
If we take the issue of a restored car - what criteria do we use? A change of chrome; a half respray or a full respray; ANY respray (that would take nearly all vehicles into that class then, given the condition of our roads!). A mine field in itself to set a critiria to.
I always thought that the idea of a concours d'elegance was to find the cars which had been best looked after, relative to age and mileage, but our club obviously thinks otherwise. I can't disagree with this one - we need to find the best kept car for each class and overall. I'm sure the Club stalwarts are trying to do this as well. Whether the changes made for this year reflect this is again a matter of opinion.
I found the latest changes well publicised in the mag a couple of issues ago and the reasoning behind them
 Mike - There is always the forthcoming AGM to attend and raise your issues about your perceived lack of publicity. Edited by hennabm - 06 Mar 2009 at 4:55pm |
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82 323i Henna
90 320iSE - died Apr 21 10 116d Sport 12 1.4 Punto Easy 89 240DL est 11 X3 3.0d SE |
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Mike Fishwick
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Posted: 06 Mar 2009 at 6:11pm |
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Well I'm damned - I thought I had read that edition of the Concours News, but I obviously didn't make a very good job of it - sorry about that!
The fact remains that most concours entrants will NOT be driving renovated cars, and that the current rules will help to tilt ythe playing field back towards low mileage cars - the difference between a 20,000 mile car and a 100,000 mile car will now only be 4 points.
These few points are easily lost when it comes to marking down the higher mileage car on seat leather which has become creased, a windscreen and paintwork with the inevitable small stone chips, or a steering wheel rim which has developed a shine - all the results of normal use.
It's going to be difficult to persuade people who don't own a hobby car that our concours events are run on a level playing field.
Is this really the way to encourage people to enter concours events?
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gerald
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Posted: 06 Mar 2009 at 7:19pm |
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mike is right the change benefits the low mileage cars now while im using mine daily and gettin more wear and tear the show cars are just sat in there garages but it wont matter .20,000 is a very very big jump instead of 10,000 it is very off putting so now ive got to find another 5 points before ive even started dnt getr me wrong i will try but ive found out the higher your score the harder it is to keep gettin them points back
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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hennabm
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Posted: 06 Mar 2009 at 8:59pm |
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Whatever class or grouping system you chose to arrange, then cars that need to look good to be representative of the breed will normally be of lower mileage because of condition and lack of use. The fact is driving them does create wear and tear and to compensate for that a mileage allowance is given. I can't see the problem with that. The way the club is going is actually reducing that allowance but still giving a lead to the higher mileage vehicle prepared for judging, as it should.
So as a scenario if we took a class that had to show at least 20k a year mileage, there would be cars with just 20k and those with say 30 - 40k. Those with 20k on would theoretically show less road usage than the higher mileage ones. I am sure under that scenario some may bleat about those with lesser mileages again. So where does the line get drawn?
I have been concoursing within the club now for over 20 years and I've never known so much noise about the rules.
One thing is for sure though, I have never seen the judging so close as it has been recently and trying to find those extra 1 or 2 points is hard, no matter what view you take on the rules.
As the old school report used to say - try harder.
Another point is the fact that these so called hobby cars will never haunt the lower classes again as once they have won a class they stay up forever, as described under the new rules. No problem for me then as 2nd every time recently
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82 323i Henna
90 320iSE - died Apr 21 10 116d Sport 12 1.4 Punto Easy 89 240DL est 11 X3 3.0d SE |
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keith Waller
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Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 2:15pm |
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Mike
Every time we attempt to make the rules fairer in any way you oppose them.
Here is a challange to you why dont you rewrite the rules and we will put them to use next year, that would be one obsticle overcome.
And before this gets personal Mike it is only a suggestion
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keith
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BJ
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Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 5:25pm |
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3 years ago I bought a nice Z3 3.0i with the intention of entering into concours.Last year it won the I class at the National Concours.I have now decided to sell it whilst it is on top.This is partly,but not wholly due to the controversy surrounding the rules of concours as interpretted by the committee,and the remarks that almost amount to bullying,with contendors jockeying for positions. It seems that everyone has a different idea about what should or should not apply.
I have had fun driving the Z,but that fun has now gone completely as I no longer enjoy driving it,having to negotiate our crazy traffic restrictions.It is no doubt disappointing to some that I am giving up the Z,but I also find I am no longer fit enough to prepare the car to a sufficient standard. So,if anyone would like to consider purchase of a well-loved and beautiful Z,please PM me. |
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Z3-3litre-RAFINIERTE KRAFT
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hennabm
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Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 7:35pm |
Keith, I'm with you and would love to see the suggestions that MF has for the concours.
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82 323i Henna
90 320iSE - died Apr 21 10 116d Sport 12 1.4 Punto Easy 89 240DL est 11 X3 3.0d SE |
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David Leake
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Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 10:16pm |
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I feel I must reply to Gerald and Mike Fishwick The Concours Committee spend a lot of time constantly monitoring members' feelings with regard to the rules and we try to be fair to all. The committee has a lot of years experience both in this club and Concours.
Had we kept the originality, Gerald, I wonder how many points you would lose; it's a question of balance.
Following our last committee meeting I spent a lot of time trying to explain what we proposed for the future of Concours judging in the January 2009 magazine.
It does get very waring and saps at my enthusiasm with all this carping and self interest.
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KennethC
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Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 8:31pm |
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Mike, what do you consider a restored car? My car has had no work done in the last 16 years and if the work had not been done then I would not have any car today.
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Mike Fishwick
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Posted: 10 Mar 2009 at 4:29pm |
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It’s a fact of life that any committee working on behalf of a large group will not make decisions which please everyone. It would therefore be unrealistic to expect nothing but appreciative comments, for there is always an alternative point of view, which has very likely already been expressed within that committee. A committee which has unanimous views is not a healthy situation for anyone. That said, there is no reason why that committee should treat any subsequent criticism as trouble-making, or that the critics are making their work less rewarding. A criticism should not produce stress, or upset people in any way. I was disappointed to see previous criticisms described as ‘Bleating,’ and suggestions that such comments have been made out of self-interest. As for the dismissive suggestion that I should ‘Rewrite the rules’ – well, I really do despair. Let me clearly state that my comments over the years have been prompted by the view that in many areas our concours rules were illogical, and did not act in the interests of the majority. As one who was disadvantaged by certain rules I obviously saw things in a different light from those who were not, but that is not self-interest. I have always been happy to enter our concours events, even though I did not agree with the rules, criticism of which does not imply a personal attack on the committee members. I have indeed repeatedly stated that the Concours Committee have a very hard task in trying to please everyone. Apart from managing to miss the most interesting part of the last Concours News – for which comment I sincerely apologise – I feel that my comments on the current rule change are pertinent. I did not expect them to change anything, but neither did I expect such a reaction from certain members of our Concours Committee.
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gerald
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Posted: 10 Mar 2009 at 7:28pm |
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well i think u have all said what u have had to say now, you have made the choice so no point complaining now
 ,thanks for spending time explaining this to me  |
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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steveH
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Concours Chairman Joined: 16 Aug 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1065 |
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Posted: 11 Mar 2009 at 12:18am |
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May I just add that the concocours committee in trying to be in-partial and un-bias will, by introducing changes, win some and loose some.
This said I would hope that those who still enjoy competing will support the club / concours events both regionally and nationally.
Stalwarts can see what is being done and whether agree or dis-agree with specific rule changes should show solidarity and whenever possible bring their cars to bolster the numbers and ensure our club concours continues to shine ( no pun intended)
Your Concours needs YOU
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Tell it how it is the Northern way.
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gerald
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Posted: 12 Mar 2009 at 7:07pm |
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just feels like im loosing out even tho i have to use my car what do u gain for my road use that it gets
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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hennabm
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Posted: 13 Mar 2009 at 4:01pm |
What would you like to see your car get for its road use?
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82 323i Henna
90 320iSE - died Apr 21 10 116d Sport 12 1.4 Punto Easy 89 240DL est 11 X3 3.0d SE |
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gerald
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Posted: 13 Mar 2009 at 8:12pm |
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abit more praise as it is harder to keep a road car to the concourse standard rather than just keeping it in a garage constantly
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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hennabm
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Posted: 19 Mar 2009 at 4:52pm |
I would agree and the praise came in the form of mileage points to recognise the efforts put in whilst still using the car regularly and/or to cover for the mileage it has accumulated in the past.
That has now been reduced, hindering the cars with higher mileages and used
Have we now reached all the way round that circle yet
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82 323i Henna
90 320iSE - died Apr 21 10 116d Sport 12 1.4 Punto Easy 89 240DL est 11 X3 3.0d SE |
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gerald
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Posted: 27 Mar 2009 at 6:45pm |
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dnt think people who enter there car will be doin 20k ayear if they were entering into concourse therefore just lost aload of points more chance of a low mileage gettin a better chance, fair enough on there behalf but still doesnt do anything for the people who have to use there car every day .
sorry to be a pain everyone just has to be said in my eyes |
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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David Leake
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Posted: 28 Mar 2009 at 3:49pm |
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Gerald
At one point per 10,000 miles there were complaints that high mileage cars gained an unfair advantage over lesser miles so we went with one per 20,000 miles which we will carry on with for now. If we scapped mileage points altogether entrants would not have the benefit of any free points.
In Open class I would expect that cars in the same class as yours to have similar mileages in which case it will be down to cleanliness.
It is only when you reach Masterclass and Elite Class that mileage may be an issue.
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gerald
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Posted: 28 Mar 2009 at 6:14pm |
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i am in masterclass thats why im bit bothered thats all,i no 5 points is alot to loose,its gone one sided i think
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gerald 323i e36 coupe
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KennethC
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Posted: 28 Mar 2009 at 9:51pm |
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Gerald
I can see where you are coming from as I had to compete with a car which was only months old and had done around 5000 miles. My car is 26 years old and travelled around 119000 miles and this was in Masterclass.
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keith Waller
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Posted: 29 Mar 2009 at 9:53am |
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Ken in your case because your car does low mileage you may well need to be on the ball with your cleaning to gain extra points.but you will still pick up your mileage points, which is a benifit to you over a new car.
This applies to all entrants
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keith
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hennabm
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Posted: 29 Mar 2009 at 6:54pm |
Yes but he and the other entrants have to work harder to secure the extra points that time and mileage ravage on the older car.
And as for when it goes to mileage per annum, the older car will be penalised even further.
A six month/year old acr will not show age or wear unless real high miles so the older car is already at a disadvantage and by reducing or removing the mileage compensation the pendulum swings in favour of newer vehicles.
This is for all older vehicles not just E30s. The 02s and E3s etc are all in the same boat; father time wreaks havoc and spares become harder to find to maintain originality. Now whether originality starts in Open/Master or Elite there is always going to be the massive jump for someone who has modified their car and stop them progressing. So in my opinion isn't it easier to start the requirement as early as possible, rather than lose them after a year or so when they cannot progress any further due to the modifications.
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82 323i Henna
90 320iSE - died Apr 21 10 116d Sport 12 1.4 Punto Easy 89 240DL est 11 X3 3.0d SE |
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KennethC
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Posted: 29 Mar 2009 at 8:34pm |
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Well said Mike!
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steveH
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Posted: 29 Mar 2009 at 11:23pm |
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Ok Guys we are aware of your stance but lets try to explain the full picture not just a snap shot at mileage & originality.
We have tried to move the goal posts so seasoned campaigners, like yourselves move into MasterClass as predominantly they are Show Cars (Gerards may be exception rather than the rule here). We all know the rules on Originality and which are allowed and which not, but it will encourage others to try concours at entry level without the incumberance of Originality points. Also on this basis most cars seldom see many miles per year therefore judging should be down to presentation and detail in terms of cleanliness and condition.
Age points are given to 'adjust' for 'age' so balances up young to old acknowleging the difficulties and extra effort needed on older cars. This is un-doubtedly Fair.
Mileage points are therefore simply an added bonus which should , it could be argued, be only used in a tie-break situation. However as a senario and taking Kens car would last year give an 'extra' 11points. This against say my car at 30k miles ie 3 points would give Ken a 9points starting advantage despite all the restoration work carried out over number of years and that now they probably do similar minimal annual miles. This now seems un-fair, I trust you will agree, as at these standards nine points takes alot of pulling back and near impossible as Kens car drops so few. Thus the points were changed to 1 per 20k so given above would still give the higher miler an advantage but more a reasonale 4/5 points. These 'bonus' points of 4/5 may still play a part in the final results but given Kens sucess over many years I cannot see it changing to detract from Kens continuing sucess.
To date, whilst the arguments continue over the system employed for recognising mileage we have not yet seen anyone come up with a better (read Fairer) method. Certainly having spoken to Porsche and others it is always a one of contention and untill someone can actually show they have 'won' or 'lost' a conours due to Mileage points then it will, thankfully, remain down to Cleanliness.
Finally, I personally appeal to Gerard, Mike and Ken to compete this year at Chatsworth and lets see if these minor changes really do make any real differences to your scores or placings.
steveH
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Tell it how it is the Northern way.
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KennethC
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Posted: 31 Mar 2009 at 5:50pm |
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Steve I am already in Masterclass. As for restoration, my car had work done to it in 92/93 and has had no bodywork done since then. The wheels were refurbed in 1991 to a road car standard and remain so to this day. The bumpers were replaced when I bought the car in 1990. My car was originally a company car pounding the motorways and accumulating the damage, some of which is still visable today. I also a 2001 car which has covered just under 15000 miles and this would be extremely easy to prepare to concours standard.
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Mike Fishwick wrote: