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E46 M3 Road/Track brake pads

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Daniel1000 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Jul 2013 at 10:28am
I have just traded in my E46 330Ci Sport for an E46 M3.  

On the 330 I switched from standard road pads to EBC green stuff as standard pads (whilst always working fine) were in poor condition after a single track day.  They lasted much better.  My garage feel the OEM equipment should be OK for an M3 on a track day but I have read lots of accounts on forums of severe brake fade (there is obviously more speed to lose at each bend in a faster car). Can any M3 owners on the track day forum share their experience?

Thanks 
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malc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2013 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by Daniel1000 Daniel1000 wrote:

I have just traded in my E46 330Ci Sport for an E46 M3.  

On the 330 I switched from standard road pads to EBC green stuff as standard pads (whilst always working fine) were in poor condition after a single track day.  They lasted much better.  My garage feel the OEM equipment should be OK for an M3 on a track day but I have read lots of accounts on forums of severe brake fade (there is obviously more speed to lose at each bend in a faster car). Can any M3 owners on the track day forum share their experience?

Thanks 


I run a track only e46 m3 and must do about 1 every month
for me its standard calipers all round DBA disc front and standard rears PF compound 1 pads (very very good) all round and Hel brake lines fronts
No fade ,good feel, last a resemble amount of time happy days .     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ian barford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2013 at 7:53pm
I just put in some ferodo ds2500 pads in the front (demon tweeks) of my m3 with pagid rears from ecp.
up until now ive always used oem stuff and its worked fine but I do have to replace the fronts around ever 4 or 5 events.
I understand that there is a oem track oriented pad which is available for the csl and should fit "standard" m3 calipers as they are the same.

hope this helps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MHunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2013 at 1:07pm

I suspect many harder pads work well, I use EBC yellow on a Z3 M Coupe and have never had fade.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2013 at 6:27pm
Thanks to all for these useful responses and apologies in advance for the length of this post.  It is interesting to hear that you get acceptable performance simply by using the right pads and maybe upgrading the disks.

I was at Snetterton today - a day I booked in advance and which happened to fall a few days after I acquired the M3, leaving little time for preparation.  I had EBC Yellow Stuff pads fitted in place of OEM equipment but that was all I had time to change with regard to the brakes.

I had the car checked by the local independent BMW specialist who looked after my previous 330Ci.  They said the front discs were lipped but within manufacturers tolerances.  The brake fluid needed changing but it should be good for one more track day and was not urgent.  Unfortunately there was no time to get the fluid replaced.

The braking system on the M3 did not perform well today!  

I completed 8 track days in my 330Ci without a single braking issue (or any other mechanical problem) and my EBC Greenstuff pads used to last several days, so I presume I do not have a driving style that is particularly heavy on brakes.  Today I initially went out for a warm up lap, 3 quicker laps (although not full pace) and a couple of miles of cool down before returning to the pits.  The front pads were gently smoking and the discs were clicking loudly.  I gave them half an hour to cool down and repeated the exercise with the same result.  After another 20 minutes or so I had my usual instructor session, which was longer and faster and didn't include my usual cooling lap.  As we sat in the car the smoke rising from the front pads was all too apparent; the brakes were more or less on fire!  Also the next time I started the car in the garage the brake pedal dropped to the floor, so I presume the fluid had boiled.  It wasn't safe to continue.  The brake fluid issue is easily solved but clearly there is a general overheating issue.

I met a CSL owner in the pits before the off, who predicted brake failure within a few laps with standard set up and said I needed compete AP systems all round, which is what many Forums say.  Unfortunately this is a very expensive option!  I guess replacing the slightly worn front discs with DBA ones paired with the right pads and brake lines might be a good compromise but could slightly worn OEM disks really account for such poor heat dissipation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2013 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Daniel1000 Daniel1000 wrote:

Thanks to all for these useful responses and apologies in advance for the length of this post.  It is interesting to hear that you get acceptable performance simply by using the right pads and maybe upgrading the disks.

I was at Snetterton today - a day I booked in advance and which happened to fall a few days after I acquired the M3, leaving little time for preparation.  I had EBC Yellow Stuff pads fitted in place of OEM equipment but that was all I had time to change with regard to the brakes.

I had the car checked by the local independent BMW specialist who looked after my previous 330Ci.  They said the front discs were lipped but within manufacturers tolerances.  The brake fluid needed changing but it should be good for one more track day and was not urgent.  Unfortunately there was no time to get the fluid replaced.

The braking system on the M3 did not perform well today!  

I completed 8 track days in my 330Ci without a single braking issue (or any other mechanical problem) and my EBC Greenstuff pads used to last several days, so I presume I do not have a driving style that is particularly heavy on brakes.  Today I initially went out for a warm up lap, 3 quicker laps (although not full pace) and a couple of miles of cool down before returning to the pits.  The front pads were gently smoking and the discs were clicking loudly.  I gave them half an hour to cool down and repeated the exercise with the same result.  After another 20 minutes or so I had my usual instructor session, which was longer and faster and didn't include my usual cooling lap.  As we sat in the car the smoke rising from the front pads was all too apparent; the brakes were more or less on fire!  Also the next time I started the car in the garage the brake pedal dropped to the floor, so I presume the fluid had boiled.  It wasn't safe to continue.  The brake fluid issue is easily solved but clearly there is a general overheating issue.

I met a CSL owner in the pits before the off, who predicted brake failure within a few laps with standard set up and said I needed compete AP systems all round, which is what many Forums say.  Unfortunately this is a very expensive option!  I guess replacing the slightly worn front discs with DBA ones paired with the right pads and brake lines might be a good compromise but could slightly worn OEM disks really account for such poor heat dissipation?


You need grooved not drilled dices and take out the brake duct blanks from the inside of wheel arch or do as I have done and mod the fog light aperture and directly air duct the front brakes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MHunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 8:10am

I find it hard to believe that AP racing is as important as that chap suggested - unless you are a really committed driver and really hard on brakes.

My advice would be to do discs, pads, fluid and ducts (malc is right that direct air cooling is a real help) and see what that brings.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabrio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 10:24am
There would be no problem using EBC Yellow pads for road and track use - I have used them on several cars of different powers for years and they work work well - dont suggest red or green for track - if want more detailed advice or direction to supplier offering carclub discount let me know 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 11:43am
Thanks again for the advice.  It sounds like the best combination on a moderate budget is:

1.  Change brake fluid for fresh DoT 5.1
2.  Replace worn OEM discs with higher-rated after-market ones
3.  Remove brake duct blanking plates
4.  Keep the EBC Yellowstuff pads and OEM calipers, as long as neither was damaged by extreme heating at Snetterton.

Sorry, a couple more questions on the above:

2.  Malc: which front DBA discs are you using - the 4000 series XSA (single piece) or the 5000 series XSA (two piece)?  

3.  On the offside there is a blanking plate fitted to the end of the duct that seems to be simply clipped in place, so that is simple.  On the nearside, the plate is a grill with large holes in it and I wonder whether this is there for a reason, given that the engine air intake appears to run off this duct - should this grill be left in place?

Thanks again all.


Edited by Daniel1000 - 19 Jul 2013 at 11:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabrio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 12:12pm
For occasional trackday the original discs will work fine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by Daniel1000 Daniel1000 wrote:


Thanks again for the advice.  It sounds like the best combination on a moderate budget is:

1.  Change brake fluid for fresh DoT 5.1
2.  Replace worn OEM discs with higher-rated after-market ones
3.  Remove brake duct blanking plates
4.  Keep the EBC Yellowstuff pads and OEM calipers, as long as neither was damaged by extreme heating at Snetterton.

Sorry, a couple more questions on the above:

2.  Malc: which front DBA discs are you using - the 4000 series XSA (single piece) or the 5000 series XSA (two piece)?  

3.  On the offside there is a blanking plate fitted to the end of the duct that seems to be simply clipped in place, so that is simple.  On the nearside, the plate is a grill with large holes in it and I wonder whether this is there for a reason, given that the engine air intake appears to run off this duct - should this grill be left in place?

Thanks again all.



These are the ones http://www.clarkmotorsport.co.uk/parts/4000-Series-Brake-Disc---SLOTTED-%28Pair%29/Front-Vented/DBA42850SP#Home/1.html?&_suid=367
Bmw designed it with these removal blacks to keep the water a debris out during winter will be fine to remove for track use inc the n/s   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 7:32pm
Thanks all.

I have located the blanking plates and unclipped them.  I see that they are, as you say, designed to be removable.  The 330Ci had clear brake ducts and the fact I was running the M3 with them blocked up will no doubt have been part of the problem (particularly as they are larger on the M3 than the 330).  It may be worth doing an evening track event to see if opening the ducts and refreshing the brake fluid alone alleviates the issue.

However, the overheating was so early in the day (and on one side the blanking plate did have large holes in it) that I have feeling it can't be the only issue.  As my discs are fairly well worn I may take the opportunity to change them to ensure full performance on this front.  It is interesting that several contributors find the standard discs OK either at the back or all round.  When changing them I may take the opportunity of a moderate upgrade like the DBA 4000's that Malc uses teamed with a high quality pad such as the ones recommended by the various contributors above.  Hopefully the problem will be fully sorted before the BMWCC track day at Donnington.

I'll not go the whole hog and order the full blown AP kit at £3,300 + fitting!  This is something of a relief as I was beginning to regret parting with the 330Ci Sport I enjoyed tracking so much over the last year!




Edited by Daniel1000 - 19 Jul 2013 at 7:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 7:46pm
Have you checked to see if one of you callipers may of seized
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2013 at 8:35pm
They appear to be working normally but I will have them checked when the fluid is changed etc (it is not my daily driver).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick Wright Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2013 at 6:47pm
Yellows are just fine. Greens will cook in no time on a heavy saloon car. Have you done a full brake service and cleaned up the caliper and pistons and masde sure everything is moving freely. Purge out all the old brake fluid with cheap stuff to cleran out the lines and then purge all the cheap stuff out again with the fluid of your choice. Cooling is key fort any sort of track use. if you have brake ducting the easiest fix is to remove the plastic arch liner and make a gap fort the air to come through by removing the foglights. You can easily put it sll back again when you get home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ian barford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2013 at 7:30pm
wow, the ds2500 pads I fit really do work!

having visited croft on many occasions I seem to have developed my own reference points for when I hit the middle pedal. on a number of laps I braked at what felt like my normal point but found that the car reduced speed so quickly I could've braked at a later point.

I am very pleased with these pads and cant help wondering what my compact track car (when it is finally ready) will be like with 4 pot brembo's all round and ds3000 pads!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2013 at 11:01pm
Thanks again for all the useful advice above.  

Is it Automac that the club have an association with?  I need some more pads, so went to their website but it seems to be down.

To update the thread above for those interested, in the end I went for the AP Racing front big brake kit. I also put new OEM discs on the rear with EBC Yellowstuff pads.  I went for this option as I wanted to be able to use the M3 for a similar number and duration of circuit sessions on track days as I had been able to enjoy with the 330Ci (otherwise the upgrade might not have been worthwhile) and it seemed to offer the best chance of this. 

The AP Racing BBK performed well on the first outing at Bedford GT circuit, which is quite heavy on brakes e.g at the end of the main straight I was braking from 130+ to 65 mph and at the hairpin from 100 to 30mph each lap.  

The kit came with their own APF404 compound pads (they have recently started supplying their own branded pads). Despite careful cooling down laps, I was experiencing brake judder by the end of the day.  Hoping it was just a case of pad deposits, I ran like this at the club track day at Donington.  Brake performance remained good but the vibration also remained unchanged.  AP Racing told me to send the discs back to them for a light grinding, to get them back to true.  They did this free of charge.

My local independent BMW specialist had inspected the discs and diagnosed warping but in fact the issue was pad deposits.  AP Racing suggest I use Ferodo DS3000 pads (or Carbotech XP10) to avoid future problems.  I would have thought DS2500 sufficient unless I am unusually hard on the brakes. Furthermore the Ferodo UK importer website indicates that is the only compound they make for E46 M3.  AP insist DS300 is available but I can't find them, so I think I'll go with DS2500.  

Any recommendations on a supplier?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabrio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2013 at 11:22pm
be interested to chat this over with you as we have used EBC in AP and Stoptech calipers on E46 M3 with NO issues at all - will depend on lots of variables with you car so happy to discuss to make sure nothing silly going on with your car in terms of bushes, hoses fluid etc

Yes Automac website is down this week for work but carclub member prices will be a lot less especially if you do the trackdays also
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2013 at 10:11am
I used to get some pad deposits with Yellowstuff too, but it'd clear within a week of normal road use.

Not had that issue with the Bluestuff NDX pads I've been using since.

BTW, this is in OEM Z4MC calipers with OEM discs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabrio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2013 at 3:41pm
The blue pads have been very good in race cars but they are not a pad I would suggest for a road going car - for that yellow works better and for longer - have used both inc now orange in competition and yellow is a good all round pad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2013 at 9:41pm
Cabrio - thanks very much for the offer.  I hope to make it to the Oulton Park track day; maybe we could have a chat then.  

There shouldn't be anything wrong with the equipment as the AP kit included new fluid, braided hoses, callipers, bells and discs.  It maybe just that on my first outing at Snetterton the problem was the brake ducts were sealed and after the kit was fitted the AP404 compound was not up to track use at the Bedford GT circuit.

I only use the car for track days, which makes a harder compound more viable, so in the end I followed AP Racing's advice and ordered Ferodo DS3000 pads from their contact at Circuit Supplies.  Hopefully this combination should now do the trick!

Cheers,

Daniel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabrio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2013 at 6:48pm
When you say APRacing - do you mean one of their approved distributors or AP themselves - agreed nothing wrong with the kit - and I know many people who have bought kits and not used the pads supplied straight from day one - you have bought pads now so can give you more advice when you need your next set or if these work for you then you know what to get - Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel1000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2013 at 10:34pm
Whilst the kit came from a distributor, I emailed AP Racing direct about the vibration issue.  They replied within a couple of hours, offering to lightly regrind the discs to true if i returned them to their Coventry HQ, which I did.  After inspection they diagnosed pad deposits, reground the discs and recommended that I order DS3000 pads from Circuit Supplies.  

Hopefully this will resolve the issue.  I have seen comments that DS3000 pads wear the discs faster but hopefully once they are up to temperature there should not be a significant difference.
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